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Date:	12/15/99 7:07:42 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 15 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1498<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Woomera Fun...<BR>
Re: Australia under orbital bombardment<BR>
Re: They're coming! (again)<BR>
Knives and Local Law Level<BR>
Re: Gossip and porno and journalism in the 3I<BR>
OT: SOF magazines to give away<BR>
Re: They're coming! (again)<BR>
Re: Gossip and porno and journalism in the 3I<BR>
Re: The Royal Australian Space Navy<BR>
Re: Just testing...<BR>
traveller poll!<BR>
Re: Mass communication, the nobility and epistemology (LONG)<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Starship re-payments<BR>
Re: Reprints (was: traveller poll!)<BR>
Re: US Constitution [OT]<BR>
RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Starship re-payments<BR>
[OT] flameware for the constitution<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:52:33 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Woomera Fun...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:54 PM<BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Woomera Fun<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Do any AUST's remember crazy Joh from QLD with his plans for the world's<BR>
> biggest spaceport at Cape York?<BR>
><BR>
> Oh yeah. RE the Southpark Episode with Starvin' Marvin and the spaceship.<BR>
> Didn't you love how the CIA  said 'We hope that no backward country gets a<BR>
> hold of that vessel' then it cut to Australia.<BR>
><BR>
> Bastards.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm still living down the Simpson's episode; "Coff-ee" "Be Er" etc.<BR>
><BR>
> Michael<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yeah Mick, I remember him... never liked him, but he WAS a clever bastard<BR>
(Invented the most successful peanut harvester! True!).  His Spaceport has<BR>
lived on with consecutive Queensland governments other than his own.  The<BR>
thing that really stopped it was Aboriginal land-rights issues on the cape!<BR>
<BR>
And I have to admit, I like a laugh, and takin' tha mickey out of ourselves<BR>
gives me a chuckle too... I laughed so hard last night when that episode of<BR>
Southpark aired on SBS :^)<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:55:01 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Australia under orbital bombardment<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 3:19 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Australia under orbital bombardment<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> A few months back we also had what was assumed to be a meteor re-enter and<BR>
> blow up in plain sight.of much of the notthern part of country  At least<BR>
two<BR>
> people took videos of it.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yeah, that rock in the dam, then some woman with a scorched stone through<BR>
her window, and last night some bloke had a rock through his roof!  That's<BR>
to mention just three currently...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:54:51 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: They're coming! (again)<BR>
<BR>
On 12/15/1999 03:51, Zane H. Healy wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Woops! I repost this, this is the _right_ link....<BR>
>> (apologies and grovelling)<BR>
> <BR>
> Ah, we got it the first time :^)<BR>
> <BR>
>> For a quite original campaign idea, see<BR>
>> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5493/Steamtech<BR>
>> "Across the gulf of space..."<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Impressive resistance put up by a TL5 culture against<BR>
>> a TL8 culture....<BR>
>> <BR>
>> It's War of the Worlds, in case you haven't guessed<BR>
>> yet.<BR>
> <BR>
> Very cool, more than a little rough, with some missing links, but very<BR>
> cool!  I don't think I'd ever considered "War of the Worlds" as a RPG<BR>
> setting, but it would make a killer setting.<BR>
> <BR>
> It's been decades (feels wierd being able to say that) since I read the<BR>
> book, and I don't really remember much of anything about it.  However,<BR>
> looks like a great start at a setting there.  Of course there are other<BR>
> possible settings also...<BR>
> <BR>
> There is the Orsen Welles setting of the 30's, the Movie Setting of the<BR>
> 50's, and the TV setting of the late 80's/future.  The TV show sort of<BR>
> combined the Orsen Wells/Movie and the TV show into a timeline, that would<BR>
> let you construct a pretty detailed background as long as you could hack<BR>
> the wierd Movie/TV tie-to-gether.  The 50's Movie setting or the Future TV<BR>
> setting would both be good settings in this timeline.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually an entire HG Wells sourcebook would be a cool undertaking!  Or<BR>
> even a sourcebook based on the movies based on his works :^)<BR>
> <BR>
>> <GURPS plug> "counter-intuitive game mechanics" it may<BR>
>> have, but it's smegging flexible, mate! </GURPS plug><BR>
> <BR>
> Ah, just toss the blasted rules, and just use it for the Character<BR>
> Generation.  This is the 90's who has time for rules!<BR>
<BR>
I've also visited the page. For background music, may I suggest none other<BR>
than the 1978 soundtrack to "The War of the Worlds" by Jeff Wayne! Includes<BR>
Justin Hayward's "Forever Autumn", probably one of the most beautiful modern<BR>
love ballads ever produced.....<BR>
<BR>
"The summer sun is fading as the year grows old,<BR>
 And darker days are drawing near.<BR>
 The winter winds will be much colder,<BR>
 Now you're not here."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:47:50 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: Cynthia Higginbotham <cyhiggin@pipeline.com><BR>
Subject: Knives and Local Law Level<BR>
<BR>
> On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> But I myself was not permitted entry into an amusement park (Great<BR>
> America) until I walked all the way back to my then-husband's car with our<BR>
> keychains, removed the mini-knockoff Swiss Army knives, the longest blades<BR>
> upon which were 1.5" long, and locked them in the car.  A folding knife<BR>
> with a 1.5" blade was considered a weapon, despite the fact that it's<BR>
> really no good for anything other than cutting tape on boxes and slitting<BR>
> open envelopes, etc.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose it's a good thing I never mentioned the 8" skinning knife<BR>
I used to carry in my purse regularly.. including to amusement parks,<BR>
etc.  I like to have a good sturdy work knife for opening boxes, cutting<BR>
string and gutting fish.  (That's how I pick a knife: will it be handy<BR>
for cleaning a few dozen fish. Cleaning fish was the one task I did with<BR>
in knife in my childhood that was exhaustive enough to really show up <BR>
deficiencies in grip design, blade style, etc.)<BR>
<BR>
			--Cynthia<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:43:02 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: Cynthia Higginbotham <cyhiggin@pipeline.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gossip and porno and journalism in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
> From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> > And a couple racist psychos they think is more<BR>
> > interesting than a couple psychos.<BR>
> <BR>
[snip]<BR>
 <BR>
> [1] MSNBC had the most absurd coverage. When the term "goth" began to get<BR>
> bandied around by the students at Columbine, the MSNBC reporters ran...<BR>
> right to their dictionary. There was a hysterical piece up on MSNBC's<BR>
> website about how goth was a movement influenced strongly by the brutal<BR>
> Gothic barbarian tribes of the dark ages, and how the goths hold Gothic<BR>
> architecture in high regard.<BR>
<BR>
Either that, or they got ahold of some of Count von Sexbat's more<BR>
whimisical alt.gothic FAQ entries on handy ancient Gothic phrases <BR>
("Help, there's an axe in my head!").  I seem to recall that the<BR>
same FAQ disavows any connection between modern Goths and gothic <BR>
architecture, which means the newsies must have read it--they frequently <BR>
get sources backwards. <BR>
<BR>
				--Cynthia<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:07:44 -0600<BR>
From: "shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: OT: SOF magazines to give away<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of Soldier of Fortune, if any of you gun toting maniacs out <BR>
there who read it want some back issues, I have a complete set up <BR>
to september of this year I inherited. I'm not a big fan of it, and have <BR>
read what I wanted...<BR>
anybody who wants them is welcome to them. they just have to <BR>
find a way of getting them.<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat AKA Kevin Walsh<BR>
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf<BR>
ADD/ADHD Advocate<BR>
http://www.advancenet.net/~meow<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:10:41 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: They're coming! (again)<BR>
<BR>
I have the double-CD soundtrack to Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds.  Great<BR>
stuff.  I originally heard just 35 minutes of it once when this biker gave<BR>
me a partial recording once and said it was Blue Oyster Cult.  :)  A few<BR>
years after that I heard a western radio station based in Oregon play it for<BR>
Halloween.  I got a better recording then and a year later (1981 by now I<BR>
think) I found the vinyl version.  We used to play it for background music<BR>
when we played Traveller, Gamma World and Risk.  :)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 6:54 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: They're coming! (again)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On 12/15/1999 03:51, Zane H. Healy wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >> Woops! I repost this, this is the _right_ link....<BR>
> >> (apologies and grovelling)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ah, we got it the first time :^)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> For a quite original campaign idea, see<BR>
> >> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5493/Steamtech<BR>
> >> "Across the gulf of space..."<BR>
> I've also visited the page. For background music, may I suggest none other<BR>
> than the 1978 soundtrack to "The War of the Worlds" by Jeff Wayne!<BR>
Includes<BR>
> Justin Hayward's "Forever Autumn", probably one of the most beautiful<BR>
modern<BR>
> love ballads ever produced.....<BR>
><BR>
> "The summer sun is fading as the year grows old,<BR>
>  And darker days are drawing near.<BR>
>  The winter winds will be much colder,<BR>
>  Now you're not here."<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Josh<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:23:57 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gossip and porno and journalism in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
Oh give me a break!  Ancient Goth meaning has NOTHING to do with "Goth"<BR>
fashion today.  Sheesh..Newsmen are stupid.  :)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
> [1] MSNBC had the most absurd coverage. When the term "goth" began to get<BR>
> bandied around by the students at Columbine, the MSNBC reporters ran...<BR>
> right to their dictionary. There was a hysterical piece up on MSNBC's<BR>
> website about how goth was a movement influenced strongly by the brutal<BR>
> Gothic barbarian tribes of the dark ages, and how the goths hold Gothic<BR>
> architecture in high regard.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 05:07:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Royal Australian Space Navy<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The yanks took golf clubs, but the Aussies would leave<BR>
> behind crushed cans of VB/XXXX/Cooper's....<BR>
<BR>
Actually, all he took along was the *head* from a club (an iron?). He'd<BR>
noticed that it'd fit on the end of one of the extension handles they<BR>
used for stuff like picking up rocks and soil samples (it's almost<BR>
*impossible* to bend over in an Apollo "moonsuit"). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:32:15 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Just testing...<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
> ...to see if this screws anyone's browser up....<BR>
> <BR>
> iSteve<BR>
> <BR>
This came through clean to me...<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:33:38 -0500<BR>
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com><BR>
Subject: traveller poll!<BR>
<BR>
I was quite surprised to see T4 had taken a sudden dramatic lead<BR>
over Classic Traveller in the members.aol.com/traveller poll. I then<BR>
(after the one turn of panic wore off) realized that there were only<BR>
55 votes. Voting had been reset as of Monday (December 12, 1699 (oops,<BR>
Y17C glitch there))<BR>
<BR>
I was also happy to discover that voting often, (ie, hitting submit again)<BR>
came up with "You've already voted, but here are the current results:"<BR>
<BR>
Now don't go posting off topic on how we can get around this (it's probably<BR>
just a cookie). I know, you know, and that's already three too many people :(<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, I just went to a titangames to see about their secure server, ended<BR>
up discovering that Far Future Enterprises is apparently not selling to<BR>
FLGS, so I have another bizarre printout to leave around the kitchen table<BR>
(what to these have in common: Fleece lined wheelchair ponchos, Classic<BR>
Traveller reprints, "The Majipoor Trilogy" (or whatever it's called now),<BR>
etc..., etc... : You can get them online easily, and no one else in my family<BR>
(including the woman I married) can figure out how to do this! :{} <-<BR>
frustrated Rob)<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I must find the state of inner peace...<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
To govern is to correct. If you set an example by being correct,<BR>
who would dare to remain incorrect?  -- Confucius<BR>
Rob Brady                               robb at datatone dot com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:25:08 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mass communication, the nobility and epistemology (LONG)<BR>
<BR>
Bradley L Houston <brhoust@juno.com> wrote:<BR>
>I was on a business trip with a co-worker.  We had to check out of our<BR>
>hotel before work because we were leaving at the end of the day.  At the<BR>
>Federal Building she had to unpack her suitcase to show the security<BR>
>guard that what they saw on the scanner was really a hair dryer.  Of<BR>
>course this is with a week's worth of dirty laundry...<BR>
<BR>
(To avoid confusion, this is a late eighties, UK based tale.)<BR>
<BR>
A story told by a co-worker about her problems with amateur dramatics.<BR>
<BR>
The play called for the use of some fake weapons. Not wanting to leave<BR>
them at the theatre in case they were stolen (IIRC the press at the time<BR>
were running lots of stories about crimes committed with fake weapons)<BR>
each of the cast took one of the weapons home.<BR>
<BR>
So she had a pistol in her bag.<BR>
<BR>
The next day she had a meeting in the QE2 building in London,<BR>
which has/had scanners at the entrance. She explained everything to the<BR>
security people before going in and they were happy that it was a fake.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, the next time she had a mmting in that building,<BR>
she forgot that she was carrying a fake hand grenade in her bag.<BR>
<BR>
For some reason, the security people wouldn't let her prove that the<BR>
grenade was a fake the easy way.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:42:27 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Starship re-payments<BR>
<BR>
Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:<BR>
>At 05:44 PM 12/14/99 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
>>>        I get a result of ~0.33% Interest Rate.  If you work on a 1%<BR>
>>>interest rate, you wind up with payments of MCr1.01 for the above loan.<BR>
For<BR>
>>>7% (a good house mortgage) you get MCr7 per payment.<BR>
>><BR>
>>the loan amount is 80MCr, you forgot the 20% down<BR>
>>according to Excel, RATE(40,-5,80) (40 years, 5MCr/year, initial value<BR>
80MCr)<BR>
>>gives an interest rate of 5.5%<BR>
>><BR>
>>Phil Kitching<BR>
><BR>
>        Odd.  I just ran what you posted and got a "no solution" condition<BR>
>again.<BR>
<BR>
Likewise the first time.<BR>
<BR>
Did you check that the payment is -5 (*minus five*) instead of just 5? <BR>
<BR>
That confused me for a bit.<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:11:55 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Reprints (was: traveller poll!)<BR>
<BR>
Marc said that the reprints will be available through normal distribution<BR>
channels.  Remember that the first book will not be out until after the<BR>
first of the year.  Marc mentioned already receiving both individual and<BR>
commercial orders at "about the rate I predicted".  I was inquiring about it<BR>
in case I might offer them online through The Traveller Trader* (secure<BR>
ordering), but since they will be readily available through normal channels<BR>
I'll leave it to them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
*The Traveller Trader http://www.downport.com/ttt/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Rob Brady" <robb@datatone.com><BR>
> Anyway, I just went to a titangames to see about their secure server,<BR>
ended<BR>
> up discovering that Far Future Enterprises is apparently not selling to<BR>
> FLGS, so I have another bizarre printout to leave around the kitchen table<BR>
> (what to these have in common: Fleece lined wheelchair ponchos, Classic<BR>
> Traveller reprints, "The Majipoor Trilogy" (or whatever it's called now),<BR>
> etc..., etc... : You can get them online easily, and no one else in my<BR>
family<BR>
> (including the woman I married) can figure out how to do this! :{} <-<BR>
> frustrated Rob)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 05:16:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: US Constitution [OT]<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Ob Trav: Is it any wonder that the imperium is a<BR>
>> Rule By Decree government?<BR>
>> If you let others interpret constitutions, you get<BR>
>> Others Twisted Views<BR>
>> (tm). How much twist can we get out of the<BR>
>> Declarations from M0 (I don't<BR>
>> have a copy, so *I* can't do the twisting....)<BR>
><BR>
> Quite right, William, like getting nine "others" to<BR>
> interpret it. Do you think a group of nine would all<BR>
> interpret it the same way? Or might they argue amongst<BR>
> themselves? And then if you changed the people in the<BR>
> group, they might go the other way in interpretation,<BR>
> going on a majority view? I'm referring, of course, to<BR>
> your own Supreme Court (gentle tease, just pointing<BR>
> out that a differing opinion from the common one is<BR>
> not necessarily caused by my being a foreigner)<BR>
<BR>
Little known detail. The Supreme court hasn't ruled on a second<BR>
amendment case since the 30s. And that one doesn't really count because<BR>
the defendant had died by the time the case got to the court, and his<BR>
defense didn't submit *any* arguments to the Court.<BR>
<BR>
And in that one the ruling (regarding a law about sawed off shotguns)<BR>
was that since it wasn't a MILITARILY USEFUL WEAPON it could be<BR>
outlawed. A first year law student could have shown that shotguns *are*<BR>
"militarily useful", but as I said, the defense lawyers just wanted to<BR>
get the case over with.<BR>
<BR>
Since then the court has *refused* to hear any appeals involving the<BR>
second amendment. And it's part of the law that just because the SC<BR>
doesn't hear an appeal does *not* indicate that they favor the<BR>
arguments of *either* side. <BR>
<BR>
The only way to *force* them to rule is if two *different* federal<BR>
districts make rulings about the same federal law that contradict each<BR>
other. So far, in spite of lots of efforts, nobody has managed to pull<BR>
it off. <BR>
<BR>
So all we can determine from the record is that the court hasn't ruled<BR>
on the matter. Though it seems a *strong* possibility that the court<BR>
wants no part of this mess.<BR>
<BR>
Rather like "obscenity". The current standard is showing more and more<BR>
holes, mostly because the "community standards" bit is resulting in<BR>
communities in one part of the country convicting people in *other*<BR>
part of the country for "violating local community standards", for<BR>
things like BBSes and web sites. Convicting a couple running a BBS in<BR>
California for violating the standards in *Tennessee* (they didn't do<BR>
*anything* in Tennessee, the folks in Tennesssee had to call *them*,<BR>
long distance!) is just one example.<BR>
<BR>
The court wants no part of this either. <BR>
<BR>
In both cases, ruling *either* way will severely upset *huge* numbers<BR>
of people. And forever change a fundamental aspect of American society.<BR>
<BR>
In the former, they will either have to rule that the 2nd says "no law"<BR>
and *means* "no law", throwing out thousands of laws across the<BR>
country and enraging the anti-gun forces. Or they'll have to rule in<BR>
some manner that agrees with the really quite severe restrictions many<BR>
places place on weapons. And convince all the fringie militia types<BR>
that it reaaly *is* time for a revolution, since the Constitution is<BR>
being ignored.<BR>
<BR>
Likewise, in the latter cases, it's pretty unlikely that they *can*<BR>
rule in favor of the current laws. And the current standard pretty much<BR>
used up the "wiggle room. If they rule on free speech versus<BR>
"obscenity" they have exactly two "viable" options:<BR>
<BR>
1. make a *national* standard and set it to the tastes of the most<BR>
   liberal places in the country. <BR>
2. finally discard the whole concept and state that it's nobody's<BR>
   business what an adult reads or watches.<BR>
<BR>
They *can't* rule that we are all stuck with the standards of the<BR>
*strictest* places in the country. The rest of the country would simply<BR>
pass a law stating otherwise. And frankly, the fact that they'd *had*<BR>
to go from a "national standard" to a "local" one way back when shows<BR>
that a *strict* national standard won't fly. <BR>
<BR>
But going with 1 or 2 will convince the "moralists" that "Satan has<BR>
taken over". And again we'll have major sections of the population<BR>
ready to revolt.<BR>
<BR>
OBTrav: Does the Imperial government ever run into this sort of<BR>
problem. Cases where no matter *how* you interpret the law, large<BR>
population segments on a planet will be upset to the point of riot or<BR>
revolt? <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:18:26 -0500<BR>
From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
Subject: RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
At 12:08 AM 12/15/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 20:48:34 -0800<BR>
>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
>Subject: RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
><BR>
>For an interesting statement on this, read Brian Puckett's statement that he<BR>
>sent to the California Governer at<BR>
>http://www.guntruths.com/Puckett/why_i_will_not_obey_california.htm,<BR>
>specifically the guns covered by the 2nd Amendment.  If we did things TO THE<BR>
>LETTER AND INTENT OF THE CONSTITUTION, then every *law abiding* gun owner<BR>
>would own fully automatic weapons.<BR>
>Always wondered, though, if Jefferson would've written<BR>
>the 2nd Amendment if there'd been around AK-47s<BR>
>instead of just muskets that took a minute or two to<BR>
>load and were lucky to hit a man at a hundred yards!<BR>
>Anywya, are you sure that "the right to bear amrs, the<BR>
>right to form state militias, shall not be infringed",<BR>
>doesn't mean, "the right to bear arms, _that is_, the<BR>
>right to form state militias, shall not be infringed"?<BR>
<BR>
Not wanting to get into gun control (OT flamebait). However, historically,<BR>
the US was not a gun owning society to any great degree from the end of the<BR>
18th century through the first half of the 19th century. Through this<BR>
period, private gun ownership was relatively rare, guns in private hands<BR>
were generally poorly maintained, the militias were, with minor exception,<BR>
a joke, and their was no culture, even in rural areas, that especially<BR>
valued guns, with the exception of a handful of hunters and trappers. The<BR>
evidence for this includes<BR>
two gun ownership surveys performed at the state level and tens of<BR>
thousands of wills that either do not list guns (which at the time were<BR>
_very_ expensive<BR>
relative to income) or list them in damaged condition.<BR>
<BR>
Gun ownership in America took off after the Civil War, when a combination<BR>
of industrialization made guns much cheaper, wartime taught millions of<BR>
Americans how to shoot, and units permitted firearms to remain in private<BR>
hands after the war.  The result was a post-war mainstreaming of rifle and<BR>
shotgun ownership.<BR>
<BR>
obTrav:  Any war with a massive civilian call-up in an era where firearms<BR>
are both issued and retained by soldiers post-enlistment is likely to have<BR>
a huge effect on law levels in the region unless strenous steps are taken<BR>
by the government to control arms afterward.  This is especially so for<BR>
civil wars.<BR>
<BR>
In Traveller, we have an interesting situation where free traders and other<BR>
civilian starships are heavily militarized, with private ownership of very<BR>
heavy ordinance.  I suspect that this is a tradition that dates back<BR>
directly from militirzation of shipping following the Long Night.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
     David L. Pulver -- Senior Staff Writer and Assistant Line Editor,<BR>
		     Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
             dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:41:20 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
>> And Daedalus was automated in spite of a hundred-year<BR>
>> mission duration; NASA can't even build something autonamous<BR>
>> that can manage to land on Mars...<BR>
><BR>
>That's because Congress keeps cutting NASA's budget, just like they did 20<BR>
>years ago with the space shuttle. If NASA were given its just due, it would<BR>
>certainly be capable of properly designing spacecraft to do the job RIGHT.<BR>
<BR>
Let's not give NASA too much credit here. NASA is a great example of now<BR>
NOT to run a space program -- it's so over-laden with bureaucracy that <BR>
anything it does is inefficient and costs way too much. The typical space<BR>
shuttle launch has a ground crew in the neighbourhood of 20,000 people.<BR>
<BR>
If transatlantic plane service were run like the shuttle program, there <BR>
would be one flight per month, there would be delays of several days if<BR>
there was so much as one little thing wrong at startup, and a ticket would<BR>
cost a million dollars.<BR>
<BR>
I say it's time for private enterprise to get into the game.<BR>
<BR>
Mind you, the spectacle of China sending someone to the moon may give<BR>
the US space program the wake-up call it needs...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:39:18 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Starship re-payments<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
I'd go with the low rate of depreciation. You *don't* give 40 year<BR>
loans on equipment that depreciates noticably over that period. <BR>
<BR>
This goes with my contention that there ought to be 100 and even 200<BR>
year old ships in service. If the TL goes up, they get shipped of to<BR>
areas that are still at the lower TL. <BR>
>>>>>>>><BR>
_Arrival Vengeance_ was over a century old when she undertook her<BR>
historic End-of-MegaTraveller mission. Granted, she'd had at least one<BR>
major refit, had spent a decade or two in mothballs, and was being run by <BR>
the Imperial Navy (which may have more money than sense sometimes).<BR>
<BR>
I like having 100-200 year old ships IMTU, but most of them by that<BR>
point look little like they did when new. I was influenced by the Han<BR>
Solo Star Wars adventure novels, where the _Millenium Falcon_ gets<BR>
a different jury-rigged repair - sometimes with very different technology<BR>
than the original - at least once per book. <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
- -----------------------------------<BR>
"We have *lots* of christmas cookies...but most of them are space aliens<BR>
and monsters."<BR>
Lucas Smith, age 6, christmas 1999.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:06:17 -0500<BR>
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] flameware for the constitution<BR>
<BR>
At 12:02 AM 12/15/99 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>You also have to remember that Jefferson and others are on record as<BR>
>having stated (essentially) that if the government got out of hand, the<BR>
>people were *supposed* to overthrow it by force of arms!<BR>
<BR>
I believe when you say "Framers of the Constitution" you can count right<BR>
in the 56 signers of the declaration of independence who quite rightly<BR>
said:<BR>
<and to think I stayed out of the biblical arguments!><BR>
<BR>
[We hold these truths to be self evident...]<BR>
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it <BR>
is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new <BR>
Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its <BR>
powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their <BR>
Safety and Happiness. [... do not do this lightly, but when a]long train of <BR>
abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a <BR>
design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is <BR>
their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for <BR>
their future security<BR>
<BR>
They appear to be saying in the beginning that it is the "Right" of the<BR>
people to throw off a government destructive of "Life, Liberty, and the<BR>
Pursuit of happiness", but when after a long train of abuses it is not only<BR>
their right, it is their duty, and furthermore their duty to create further<BR>
guards against future abuse of such governments, such as the Bill of Rights.<BR>
<BR>
</back to traveller><BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Tardy robber.. Order By Brat.. Tardy Bob ERR.. Retry bad Rob.. Retro by bard<BR>
Robert Brady                                        robb at datatone dot com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1498<BR>
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